This post is for all you hot shot trainers out there who
Absolutely love to analyze movement and dysfunction.
How many times have you looked at your client and known
deep down that something was wrong with their form.
This happens all the time and most trainers just bypass
the situation without actually putting forth a solid
effort to uncover the actual anomaly.
The video below contains a quiz developed by one of my colleagues.
Take this quiz and leave your analysis in the comments section and
the best appraisal will be announced next week on the blog.
Winner receives a DVD of choice at no cost!!
GOOD LUCK
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38 Responses to “Corrective Exercise Challenge”
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YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME THIS GUY IS WORKING MORE BICEPS THAN TRICEPS, ANDSOME REAR DELTOID STARTING BYTHE ANGLE OF HIS TORSO IN WHICH THE ARM WHEN IN FULL EXTENCION HAS ALMOST NO TENSION IN THE TRICEPS, THIS IS AN ISOLATION EXERCISE BETER DONE ONE ARM AT A TIME PLACING YOUR KNEE AND OPOSITE HAND OM A BENCH BRINGING THE TORSO TO AND HORISONTAL POSITION, THIS WILL REALY LOAD THE TRICEPS WHEN THE ARM IS FULLY EXTENDEDALSO IT IS BEST ON THE WAY DOWN NOT TO BRING THE ARM TO THE PERPENDICULAR POSITION MEANING 90 DEGREES, BEST TO STOP BEFORE THIS WHICH WILL KEEP TENSION ON THS TRICEPS, HE SHOULD ALSO HOLD THE REPETITION FOR AT LEAST A SECOND ON THE UP POSITION WHEN THE ARM IS FULLY STRECHED OUT BUT MAKE SURE NOT TO LOCK THE ELBOW. LEANING ON A BNC WILL ALOW FOR SAFELY CARRY MORE WEIGHT WITHOUT OVERLOADING THE LOWER BACK.
Hey!
This triceps kickback exercise being performed by this client is ineffective due to the following:
- poor form which can be fixed by flexing forward at the hip more and keeping a strong core and by elevating the elbow more which takes more of the anterior delt out of the movement.
- muscular imbalance, in most exercises that are multi-joint or involve main and secondary mover the weaker muscle can sometimes feel like it is the sole working muscle. This can be improved by strengthening the weaker muscle and correcting the muscle imbalances of your clients and in this case strengthening the anterior deltiods.
Thanks for all your great info!
Alaina
Everything about it is sloppy. The Stance is all wrong. Makes the movement way too sloppy. Standing way too upright. I like 45 to 90 degrees. Movement should be only from elbow down–isolate the tricep. His movement was also not consistent. In timing and how far he came down on the repetition. If stance and movement are icorrected–he would feel it in the tricep. After all this is corrected and he still is not feeling it in the tricep , Take the weight up a notch. Just plain sloppy and I would never let one of my clients do an exercise like this.
The reason the client is not experiencing the “burn” in the tricep is there is not enough forward lean at the waist. If he is unable to do this, it is most likely due to a weak lumbar spine or tight hamstrings. However, this exercise may be modified by placing the right knee and the right hand on a bench while performing the same movement with the left arm. This exercise is performed one arm at a time; therefore, after a set with the left arm, he would switch hands and place the left knee and left hand on the bench. This will allow the elbow to be elevated to a point where the tricep is doing the work rather than the anterior deltoid and bicep.
As stated before, if the client is unable to perform the exercise with more of a forward lean, it is most likely due to a weak lumbar spine and/or tight hamstrings. These problems should be addressed with corrective exercises. For the lumbar spine, a lumbar extension machine may be used for strengthening. Also various floor exercises envolving extension of the lower back is an option. For the tight hamstrings, it is advised to do partner stretching such as pnf stretching of the hamstring. Toe touches are not recommended because it requires flexion of the lumbar spine which is opposite of what we are going for.
If the client is experiencing pain in the anterior deltoid it may be due to poor scapular retraction. There are several Corrective execises for this problem. First are rows with elastic tubing focusing on scapular retraction or squeezing the shoulder blades together. Also, various rotator cuff exercises involving external shoulder rotation is an option. Another exercise is reverse flies focusing on squeezing the shoulder blades together. This can be done using elastic tubing, dumbbells, or a machine.
These corrective execises should be done with little resistence, focusing on form and movement. 2 sets of 15 repeated everyday, again stressing form and movement, should correct the existing problems.
The client’s elbows are not pulled back high enough. The shoulderblades need to be retracted and elbows locked into that position, hinge at the hip with a flat back (maybe use a bench for stabilization), keeping the elbows high, extend at the elbow.
I personally think that you should not be doing a tricep kickback in the first place. If this client is looking for overall strength and maintain health he should be doing other exercises such as progressional push-ups to become stronger.
Besides that point, I am assuming he has a little bit of anterior rotation of the humerus as he kicks his arm back. If he is using a dumbell he should be placed horizontal on a bench with a flat back and his elbow to his side to ensure proper isolation. A weak serratus might also be the cause of not having any scapular stability.
I could be wrong but this is my point of view on the individual!
First of all in this position he is not targeting the triceps properly,more the biceps.
I would opt for a single handed kick back while leaning on both knees and one arm,keeping the core tight and slightly involving the resting arm while keeping it short of lock out, and using the arm with dumbell to kickback no higher than back and lower not below 90degree angle at elbow.For variation the client could use a neutral grip,pronated and supinated in order to add a new twist to the exer.
Also a few points to keep in mind are
-shoulders away from ears and scapulae slightly retracted
-keep spine neutral and abs tight as if resisting a punch.
If we opt for a both hands kickback the client should lean in more by hinging from the hips,bending knees and following the protocol of a 90degree elbow bend while extending no higher than back while mainting proper flat back neutral spine posture and basic scap retratcion and activating the quads glute abs and lower back for support.
I would try different exercise tempos 1second eccentric and 3-5 concentric and keep the reps in the 12-15range and also incorporate burns and pulses.
HOPE I WIN THIS DVD;)
Slight adjustments are everything. The speed of movement of the Tri Kickback was correct; however, the body posture and the elbow were at adverse angles. I would direct the client to place the upper body with more forward lean; protecting the lower back and bring the elbow and upper arm near parralel to the floor.
A) It appears as you gave us a healthy client
B) Switch to a 1 arm DB Kickback instead of two handed, it is more limited, though less time consuming. If time is the case, rest periods are only the time it takes for the other arm to work.
C) Make sure to choose appropriate weight.
D) Standard 1 arm kickback for a healthy client would be to put them in the dumbell in one hand and other hand and 1 knee on a flat bench position
E) Then execute by point your elbow as high as you can towards the sky while leaving the Db hanging by your side. Controlled, extend your arm back and up until it is as straight as it will go without your upper arm and elbow moving from the side of your body -lock the upper arm in. Once fully extended, flip Db and wrist up so palm is facing the sky, pause for a second, then lower back to starting position, this should get full contraction on tricep. Recommended tempo of 2-1-2.
F) If 1 arm isn’t an option then resting face down on a incline bench of about a 30 degrees, would work to do 2 handed Db kickbacks.
G) Sets should not exceed 3 and keep reps at higher range, 15-20
H) The three components to have, let client fight gravity as best they can, that’s why standing or leaning kickbacks have decreased resistance- limited fight vs. gravity. Keep control of both directions of movement and finally finish most tricep moves with wrist flip and hold
I) For great triceps, this is a great finisher but not ideal for mass and true strength. However the kickback is still beneficial to overall tricep development.
Well, first of all it would me important to understand what exactly the client “feels” in the anterior shoulder. Is it muscle fatigue? Pain? An excessive stretch or pulling sensation? Deeper joint pain or discomfort? The general problem is that most beginning clients have a difficult time distinguishing between the above.
As a trainer, we immediately want to diagnose the problem as a muscle imbalance.
In terms of the exercise itself, this is NOT an ideal movement for the triceps. Although the long head of the triceps (being the only that crosses the shoulder joint) will aid in shoulder extension, will only be engaged during the later part of the movement (extension beyond a vertical position of the hanging arm).
The majority of this movement consist of eccentric biceps contraction and shoulder stability.
There are many exercises that one can choose from that engages full range of motion of all three heads of the triceps while putting the shoulder in a more natural and controlled (especially scapular control) position.
Great job with your Trifecta series by the way… Any serious trainer reading this should definitely check it out.
First I believe that this is an incorrect alignment of the body, no wonder the client is feeling the contractions somewhere else! In order to perform this correctly the client must hinge from the hips and lean forward until his torso is about 45 degrees from the floor. Then lift the elbows until the upper arm is parallel w/the floor. If this is too difficult, decrease the weight.
If the client continues to struggle, I would switch w/an exercise that allows the client to isolate the tricep without overcompensating in any other areas. Lets put the client in a supine position on the floor w/knees bent and feet flat. Client takes 1 weight in right hand, palm facing in towards midline of body, and places the fingers of his left hand on his right tricep. Now he can flex from the elbow, bringing his hand down to his shoulder, and then presses up. I would start with a weight that allows him to perform approx 10-12 reps, in order to build muscle memory and allow the muscle to begin gaining strength. Perform 2 sets, and then take a slightly heavier weight to perform the last set, around 8 reps (to failure), and also going more slowly.
I would increase the weight slightly each week, allowing time for the muscle to become stronger. After about four weeks I would try the kickback again, now that the muscles are stronger.
Sincerely,
Michele Penta
That’s a biceps curl NOT a triceps kickback, which btw would only be prescribed by an amateur
Is this a trick question?? I see nearly every thing BUT the triceps activating here. LOL!
What would I do to correct “that” as she asks in the video. You mean aside from coach proper form for a tricep kickback?
Just a guess but I’m betting he can handle more than 3lb pink dumbell.
He appears to have some upper cross – at least in this position.
I’d tell him to stop doing a mangled bicep curl and coach proper form for a tricep kickback – and then re-evaluate.
Engage the core, increase hip flexion, depress & retract shoulder blades. Elbows stationary.
Corrective? Hard to say given he’s not in the proper position for a kickback.
If he still had the same problem – stretch pecs, lats, and likely neck/scm as well, work on core & mid/lower trap strength, shoulder mobility/stability.
Oh yeah, almost forgot – ban him from the bench press until he’s really feeling the burn with those pink dumbells
The client is standing too upright. He needs to bend at the waist, keeping elbows close to the body.
It is important for the trainer to evaluate and determine those exercises which the resistive force challenges the muscle force. In this exercise, better use of gravity and weight could be altered to provide the client with more of a challenge.
1. The client is not feeling too much on the triceps. This is because the ‘angle’ of force based on using gravity is not optimal. Being that the client has no prior injury, then more proper form can be used. The client should bend over a little further keeping the knees bent and low back flat. Then raising the elbows to get the upper arms parallel with the floor. This will more fully engage the triceps. Also, by keeping the body positioned that way, the low back and quadriceps will also have to remain engaged to hold that position. Lastly, at the top (contraction) portion of the exercise, the client should pause momentarily and really feel the contraction and let the dumbells down slowly. This movement should continue with slow, steady and continuous form until the desired amount of fatigue is achieved.
Hey Brian,
First since the client is looking for overall strength and fitness, I wouldn’t have him do a tricep kickback by itself, instead I would integrate a triceps exercise into a multijoint movement. For example a lunge with a overhead tricep extension or a tricep kickback with a reverse lunge.
The client feels the movement in the anterior deltoid because his humerus is slightly posterior of neutral and it is burdened with holding the weight of the forearm and dumbbell through the entire range of motion. The client does not feel it in the triceps because it is doing minimal work at the angle that the humerus and forearm and dumbbell are located in relation to gravity.
I would have the client flex more at the hip moving the torso closer to parallel to the ground while keeping neutral alignment of the spine. I would have the humerus right along side the torso (almost like it was pinned to it) and then I would start the movement with the weights near perpendicular to the floor and have the client extend the arm back. Thus utilizing the full effectiveness of the weights as they work against gravity through nearly the full range of motion. Which is the major reason why the client was not feeling the movement in the right place to begin with.
Thanks,
Shelton
Hi Brian, I appreciate your work. The short lever arm directed at the tricep results in very little resistance to that area. In order for the client to feel it more he would need to lean forward more with a braced spine and bring his elbows higher so that his upper arms are parallel to the floor. If he has back problems he go one arm and brace with his other hand on a bench. Having said that I wouldn’t do a tricep isolation exercise anyway. I would prefer to do a hands on a medicine ball push up so that the ankles, knees, hips, core, chest and shoulders get involved.
first of all should start with a scapular retraction so he could set his shoulders. The client is using alot of momentum bringing the dumbbells in front of the hips. How about leaning over more to work against gravity.
First off, this exercise is totally lame. While I would never say this to the client, he is complaining he doesn’t feel the movement in a pair of triceps that he barely even has. This is like complaining that you aren’t earning any interest in a bank account that is overdrawn.
He would be better off focusing on movements first and muscles secondly. I don’t know what the rest of the routine is but his efforts should be centered on compound exercises like pushups and presses.
Not that this answers your question though. This exercise is I assume to be a triceps kickback but from the apparent lack of stability of the humeral head upon shoulder extension it resembles more of a bizarro incline dumbbell curl from the standing position.
The pressure in his anterior deltoid area is probably caused by a weak subscapularis that is unable to stabilize his humeral head upon shoulder extension so he is probably feeling a lot of pressure on the nerves and blood vessels running through his brachial plexus. Taking his arm/shoulder out of hyperextension and placing it into anatomical position at the side of his body would probably act well until you have built more strength in the scapular stabilizers. You will also need to change his trunk angle since the line of pull in such a position, while more forgiving in the shoulder area, will take the tension completely off his triceps and make it more of a biceps curl. Either putting him belly down on a bench or stability ball would do that effectively and if he has any issues with back pain it would also serve to stabilize his spine until he builds more core strength. Or you could just make him hinge more from the trunk, effectively increasing the line of pull through the triceps by putting his arms more parallel to the ground without having to create hyperextension at the shoulder joint (i.e. GH joint).
Sorry for the rant here but in summary:
1. This exercise stinks
2. The guy is hyper extending his shoulder joint
3. You need to change the line of pull on the muscle to put more direct stress on the triceps.
Analysis of the exercise:
Position: Only able to look at upper body due to video. Unable to see what type of surface the person is standing on.
Slight Hip Flexion
Slight Extension of arm at GH joint
Neutral position of the Radio-ulnar joint
Plane of Movement for exercise:
Sagital Plane
Axis for movement:
Frontal at the elbow joint
Line of Force:
Down at all times due to gravity of the DB.
Movements of the exercise
Flexion at the Elbow
Moment Arm of Elbow in Flexion:
Greatest at 90-degrees of elbow flexion, i.e. DB closest to shoulder in video. The main elbow flexor being used is the Bicep brachii
Extension at the Elbow
Moment Arm of the Elbow in Extension:
Decreases as the DB is actively lowered until the elbow is fully extended. The moment arm for the tricep is very short due to structure of the Humerus and Ulna, specifically the Olecranon of the Ulna hitting the Humerus.
Summary:
The primary muscle being worked is the bicep concentrically during the elbow flexion phase. The bicep is also working eccentrically to control the DB as it moves to a position of slight flexion, zero moment arm for both the bicep and tricep or the bottom of the movement when line of force is through the elbow. At that time the tricep is stimulated to take the tricep to full extension.
Ways to stimulate the Tricep:
Change torso position: Maintain the control at the GH joint as shown in the video. Add more hip flexion. Do this in a progressive manner to allow client to maintaining GH position and learn to control the torso in each new position.
Change Line of Force: the line of force will always be down with a DB. It is impossible to change the lof with a db, we can change the position of the segment to create a bigger moment arm as stated earlier. To actually change the lof in the demonstrated position try using a cable instead of a DB. This will change the lof from always going down to always coming back to the cable start point. This allows for more variations in lof due to the ability to move the cable position on certain machines.
The audio and video , for whatever reason , were interrupted, but I believe I got the just of it. My response is mainly that he has ineffective positioning for this exercise. His torso and humerus should be parallel to the floor to effect the triceps at end range and full extension. He could also employ a brief “hold” at full extension to further engage his triceps ( as long as he employs the noted positioning corrections). In terms of exercises, the given exercise is not very effective for strengthening or hypertrophy given he has no limiting conditions or injuries. Better choices would be any compound movement —- push up (arms pressed to torso) ,dips or modification of if not strong enough, any good pressing movement, even a straight arm pulldown would be better than what he is doing now, although he will probably “feel” that more in many other places. Isolated standing triceps extensions with a band or triceps rope might also be employed if he insists on an isolation movwment.
Definitely needs to lean forward more using only one arm at a time. Stabilize by using a bench and only move the lower arm in this exercise. How about using more body weight exercises so his overall strength improves?
why make the triceps a prime mover in any exercise or body movement. the tricep is an assister in most upper body multi joint movements, treat it as such. to isolate it is to extend the elbow with external load which could cause problems in future ex.. flexibility, tendonitis or worse. until I need the money I will refuse to train a client in this fashion.
“One man’s food is another man’s poison” Lecretius
Our goal most of the time in a movement assessment is to look for overactivity and/or underactivity in any given muscle of set of muscles.
In a perfect world we could assume that physiologically Mr. “Pink dumbbell” is completely sound, however as health and fitness professionals we know assuming this is like assuming all personal trainers are created equal…In our perfect physiological world we would maybe use a foam roller to inhibit and release tension in his lats, hamstrings, and thoracic spine. Then we would have him actively stretch the lats, pectorals, and posterior rotator cuff, maybe a little levator scapulae. We would then perform an activation exercise such as a scaption on swiss ball. Finally we would integrate everything together and perform a cable squat to row.
Sure flexing forward at the hip and depressing and retracting the shoulder blades are awesome cues and work ( most of the time), however if an individual is not physiologically sound, these are hard demands on the body, as many forces are working agaisnt the individual performing the exercise, any exercise correctly.
For this reason, lack of assessing the physiological state, any movement assessment is inaccurate. Remember, ” you can’t out-train a bad diet and lifestyle.” Find out this gentlemen’s stressors, maybe he is experiencing Leaky Gut Syndrome and has no idea that this condition will almost 100% prevent you from completely activating and engaging your core muscles, much less keep the spine neutral.
I appreciate the opportunity to post in your blog, Brian. Keep helping all of us take more steps toward wellness and away from illness!
In health,
Nick Garcia
Besides the fact that the position and form are not ideal for a tricep kickback… I do see alot of momentum and movement is a bit staggered. He may have weak posterior delts so therefore can not stabilize properly. Definitely needs to build up strength in posterior delts, middle/lower traps and lats.
I think the stance and form are correct. I would have the client concentrate on two exercises, which would be a bicep hammer curl and tricep pushdown with scapula depression. With the hammer curl i would make the client squeeze the concentric and the eccentric, which would be the tricep pushdown with the weights. at the bottom of the movement i wold have them go into the scapula depression while still holding the weights. I would perform five reps and then have the client switch the lunge stance to the other leg and perform five more reps.
Wow. Okay, First he needs to bend more at the hips. Contract the abs to take pressure off the low back. I like my clients to be as close to 90 degrees as possible. Next he needs to raise his elbows. I try to get my clients parallel to the floor. This will help isolate the biceps. I think for him a more effective way would be to do one arm at a time. This way he can keep the upper arm stable and all the movement will be coming from the elbow and not the shoulder. To start I like to have my clients look at themselves in the mirror as they do this exercise. That way they can see and feel when they are doing it correctly. They can see the abs contracting to support the low back, that the upper arm is stable and movement is coming from the elbow, that the upper arm is parallel to the floor and if done effectively they can actually see the isolation of the triceps.
Michelle
Ok, Lets not over analize this. Both feet shoulder width kness bent softly ,bend forward at the waist keeping the elbows elevated high , shoulder blades together hinging at the elbow only, squeeze the triceps on the extension.
Basic physics. The resistance needs to oppose gravity. This isotonic exercise requires the client to flex forward at the hips maintaining neutral spine in order to achieve maximal tension and resistance through elbow extension. He can use a bench as well if he needs help stabilizing his trunk in order to prevent further compensations.
He feels stretch in his anterior delts here because his shoulders are extended. This compensation can be avoided by flexing through the hips as described above and maintaining a more stabilized neutral shoulder position where his upper arms are parallel to his torso.
Thank you for the cool vids!
The clients current position has the load placed on the anterior side of the arm requiring the majority of effort for movement to come from both the biceps and the anterior of the shoulder. In order to activate the triceps we must correctly reposition the load posterior of the arm.
I’m looking for a strong flat back position, elbows elevated horizontal and tucked into the side. A simple controlled movement originating at 90 degree arm flexion, ending with an eccentric contracton of the tricep for the desired full elbow extension. An outward turn of the wrist for full range of motion and a brief pause at the top of the movement is beneficial to insure proper weight selection and maximize muscle fiber recruitment. Be sure to monitor unwanted angular momentum caused by shoulder involvement.
Great movement when performed correctly.
Be Well!
I am giving this my own best shot without reading what everyone else wrote first. He probably feels more in the anterior shoulder because his elbows are higher than his shoulders in back and because of his nearly upright position. Also, the position of his hand should be rotated so that his palm faces up in the kick back position. I am guessing he may feel more biceps as well. I would probably start by asking this (apparently healthy) client to use a bench for one arm kick backs. Place one knee on a bench and his hand directly below his shoulder. I would instruct him to keep his spine (no sway back or rounding up) and head in a neutral position. His back should be well supported in this position and his hips should remain square with the floor. He should be looking at the floor. Keeping his elbow next to his rib cage and in alignment with his shoulder he can begin the kick back movement, palm facing up. I hope I am close!
O.K., First You have to tell me If your looking for the correct way to execute a dumbbell triceps kickback or an alternative exercise for possible week external rotation of the scapula. We first must look at the position the upper torso is in. When working with free weights the utilization of gravity is key. The man in the video clip is angled forward at such a mild degree that resistance of the dumbbells are placing greater stress on the bicep, brachialis, and anterior deltoids. By putting the client in the proper angle before executing exercise, issues with the scapula retraction would be more obvious. The use of bands for someone with week external rotators, placing clients spine along the outside edge of a wall or foam roller while trying to pinch scapula together in upright position, bands Angkor in front of a client at level between knee and hip, using elbow extension would be more effective version of a kickback. my first choice if the issue is week scapula retraction, would be to pick a different exercise.
Dumbbell kickback done correctly. 1. dumbbells in hand, hing at hips into forward flex ion, bending knees slightly to achieve a 90 degree angle with a neutral spine. 2.arms hanging down, draw scapula together into retraction, and depression. 3. pull elbows into rip cage keeping upper arm parallel with torso or slightly higher wile keeping external rotation of shoulder girdle. 4.hold this position isometrically through out movement. 5.hing at elbow drawing dumbbells up into extension, palms facing sides or up can create different contractions in triceps, however, if wrist is causing a forearm flex ion and elbow can’t get to full extension, try facing palms down as too engage the forearm extensors on concentric faze. This is not my first choice for a good triceps exercise, however a great movement for peek contraction in triceps as long as muscles, teres minor and major, posterior delts, lats mid traps , and rhomboids are all contracted wile utilizing gravity to fullest advantage. You should definitely feel the triceps BURN!!!
The guys body position is to upright. The client needs to bend over more and elevate the elbow so that as he extends the forearm the dumbbell will get perpendicular to the ground.
He is possibly weak in the upper back and his retractors are not staberlizing the scapular and that is why he will be feeling it in the anterior deltoid. His core is also weak and that is why he is unable to bend over and get the correct body position to execute the movement.
For this type of client I would go to more functional movement to activate the triceps like a elbow to hands starting him by being on his knees and then onto his toes. This will also work his protractors and retractors and his core and getting
the whole body to work together.
Please let me know if I’m close
Regards
Jason
Basic physics. The resistance needs to oppose gravity. This isotonic exercise requires the client to flex forward at the hips maintaining neutral spine in order to achieve maximal tension and resistance through elbow extension. He can use a bench as well if he needs help stabilizing his trunk in order to prevent further compensations.
He feels stretch in his anterior delts here because his shoulders are extended. This compensation can be avoided by flexing through the hips as described above and maintaining a more stabilized neutral shoulder position where his upper arms are parallel to his torso.
Thank you for the cool vids!
i would look for more information about this … btw have you got a facebook page ? bookmarked your website …
Nice. Thanks for posting this. It is always great to see someone help out the community.
in order to engage the triceps in this exact posture and rubber band or cable should be used to get the proper line of pull to make the triceps do the work. if the goal was to specifically use free weights, then changing the position would be required.
I 100 % agree with Martin says:
October 3, 2009 at 12:22 pm. if he hasn’t won already, I’d like to know why not…
Bill